In principle i like NVC - I try to use it as much as possible, but I do wonder whether it is possible to do it all the time. When Grace pulls over the toilet brush, I’m afraid I don’t have time to say “I understand that you are curious and want to find out about the toilet brush, but I’m worried about you playing in the toilet water because it has lots of germs, so I’d really rather you didn’t pull it over - can we find you something better to play with?“ In honesty, I resort to barking “stand still, don’t touch, leave it alone, come away”. Because I don’t raise my voice very often, it does (currently) have the desired effect.
The article talks about our in-built expectation to be obeyed, simply because we are the parent, and our child is the child. I’d argue that I’m not expecting to be obeyed because I am the adult, but in certain circumstances, I expect to be obeyed because I have the greater body of experience and am trying to keep my child safe…..
Hmmm, could you move the brush whilst she is in there? I think I read she is just 13 months? Seems a little young to me to need to ‘bark’ like that, (plus, she doesnt really understand what you are saying as much as that the tone of your voice ‘means business’?) no offence though, I know it is easily done
I think a young child does not understand that sometimes, you are saying things, and needing to be obeyed, because you are trying to keep them safe. Your daughter has no understanding of germs right now, or what it means. As she gets older you will be able to explain that certain things we dont touch becuase they can be dirty and make us poorly etc (and she will start to understand). I also try to spot if K is about to do something she shouldnt. Usually just saying her name in a certain way is enough to halt her, at least long enough to then explain.
I have started trying a lot harder myself, I have to say. But I have to constantly remind their dad and that drives me nuts. He is particularly prone to biting back with “you’ve said x,y,z before….“ like that validates it? The fact is I am really watching myself atm and stopping myself from making threats (even ‘jokey’ ones) and not shouting and being ‘aggressive’ in my response. It’s the most awful thing when you hear your child speak like that, so I know I need to stop it myself so that they stop it too.
I’m not a fan of NVC tbh. (ducks) I find it emotionally manipulative to expect children to do things because of how I feel about it. It doesn’t fulfill the criteria of being non-violent if it’s a tool to get other people to fulfill your needs. NVC has its place, mostly in situations where you are in danger of becoming hurtful, not in every interaction - especially between parents and children (because they are naturally so tuned in to our feelings).
I believe validating and saying what you see are very important ways of communicating. But stating “I” feelings, can be terribly overused and pretty hurtful. I don’t see the use for it in this scenario, and I am uncomfortable with it being a mainstay of my conversation with anyone.
Gentle discipline, in this case, would surely be simply moving her and saying, “dirty”. *shrugs* I agree with what you say about parental experience, that is one of many reasons why I’m not with the Taking Children Seriously crowd, perhaps it would be helpful for you to think about her actions as needing to comply with safety guidelines rather than as obey your authority? It helps me to think of certain things as ways in which we ALL have to stay safe, rather than rules that I am laying down.
In this situation I would probably have said an exaggerated ‘eeeewww’ while screwing my nose up and then putting the loo brush out of the way.
I have to say I’ve never thought much of NVC, though haven’t looked into it too much. Just because the few families who I know who do it to the extreme have such selfish, bratty children that it’s put me off totally. That sounds horrible, and I don’t mean it to but they really are!
*however* I liked the article and it piqued my interest because I am too quick to just order the kids around sometimes when I am tired/stressed and I’d like to have some ideas for saying things better. Sometimes I hear my mothers voice coming out of my mouth and wince so I am going to read a bit more into it I think, as usual sieving the info to find the useful bits for us.
The classic one I saw was where a 6 year old had taken £50 out of her dads wallet (the family were very broke) and they sat down and explained that the consequences of her keeping the £50 were that they wouldn’t be able to buy particular things that they would need and would not be able to have nice dinners for the rest of the week. The daughter thought about it and decided she still wanted to keep the money and spend it so they actually took her to the shops and let her spend it!! This was the second or third time this had happened too. The mum just said to me ‘well, what can I do? I’ve tried everything’ and I have to say I was not particularly impressed and probably just stood with my jaw hanging down!!
I enjoyed elements of the article, but at one point I paused and imagined the look on Willow’s face if I asked her to discuss my need for her not to, say, rip off a big piece of raw dough and try to eat it. She’s give me a look which, roughly translated, would be of the “er, wha?“ variety. Then proceed to shove dough into said little face.
I don’t know, I do need to look at it a bit more, but it does at first glance appear to me to be a bit too..“well you should think about MY needs!“ I’m not a big fan of sitting and banging on about my needs at the best of times. I certainly don’t expect my 2 year old to have a huge awareness of them. I think it could be rather confusing for her actually, trying to understand all these adult *needs* largely focusing on tidyness and order. She’s at the age where she really doesn’t care, and neither should she.
I would rather use other ways to communicate gently, such as using a positive instead of a negative. In fact, on the topic of communication, the best one I read was in a GP agesss ago. In fact I think it was one of the first few I got. Come to think of it I seem to recall starchild wrote it…....
I haven’t anything useful to add I’m afraid, but just logged on here and this was waiting in my inbox, which made me think of this thread
I was out walking with my 4 year old daughter.
She picked up something off the ground and started to put it in her mouth. I took the item away from her and I asked her not to do that. ‘Why?‘ my daughter asked. ‘Because it’s been on the ground and you don’t know where it’s been, it’s dirty and probably has germs’ I replied. At this point, my daughter looked at me with total admiration and asked, ‘Mummy, how do you know all this stuff? You are so smart.‘ I was thinking quickly. ‘All mums know this stuff. It’s on the Mummy Test. You have to know it, or they don’t let you be a Mummy.‘ We walked along in silence for 2 or 3 minutes, but she was evidently pondering this new information.
‘OH… I get it!‘ she beamed, ‘So if you don’t pass the test you have to be the daddy.‘
I liked the article in the GP but I have read Marshall Rosenbergs book and hated it, it made me want to vomit. I think you can be non-violent about your communication with others without being so seemingly superficial and manipulative.
Reading the GP article has made me think again about how I talk to my family - in particular when I am stressed and the kids have done something naughty for the umptininth time that I’ve asked them time and time again not to. Sometimes I scream (not proud) others I am able not to and find something calm and matter of fact to say about what they’ve done and make it clear calmly that it isn’t good and doesn’t make me happy (to which Zander will stroke my face and say ‘are you happy now mummy’!). Then we move swiftly on. There’s no point dwelling.
So for that I am grateful, but I do not subscribe to NVC as he writes about it.
Love the story! Should perhaps have clarified - when I say “bark”, I mean something less than a shout - I don’t shout at Grace - my “bark” is more of an “I’m serious about this” tone, rather than a shout.
And yes, every time I go into our shared-with-the-inlaws bathroom I move the dangerous bin, the flimsy shelf unit, all the towels etc - but there isn’t actually anywhere for the loo brush to go. Dealing with Grace and trying to shake off a pooey nappy in the bathroom is a constant problem, which is why I used it as an example.
I guess my point was that on occasions, as adults we *do* know more about stuff than our kids and it is our job as parents to help them stay safe (I don’t mean constantly stopping them from doing things , but I do mean not letting them jump in front of a bus!). Sometimes we can do that by negotiation - sometimes it is non-negotiable, because sometime I do know better than my 13 month old…..
I’m another one who isnt into NVC - I cannot manage to read anything about it without imagining it all being said in a whiny American Accent (or is that compulsory, lol).
Have been pondering and returned with something rather more useful (maybe) ... my children are a bit older (4-7) and I have said that if I ask them to stop something, they need to stop right away, if they’re not sure why or disagree they can ask me why they need to stop and we can negotiate if possible, but sometimes to keep themselves safe they need to let me set some limits.
It works ... most of the time (apart from the times when I end up yelling, and then trot out my I’ve lost the plot line “I might as well stand in a room and talk to myself…“ )
I’ve also found NVC less than useful. It seems amazingly wordy to me - my kids (especially DS) would have left the room, destroyed 2 things and fallen in a bucket by the time I’d got through all that lot. Plus my children never follow ‘the script’. I can do all that ‘I would like it if x, y or z, and it makes me feel very sad if x, y and z’ and they’re looking at me as if to say, ‘so, what’s that got to do with me?‘. In DD’s case this kind of conversation actually winds her up more if she’s cross - she can’t bear people to repeat what she’s said or put things into words for her, or in her words ‘go on and on’
Obviously, it’s always good to think about what you’re saying, why you’re saying it, and the tone you’re saying it in. It’s good to think about the things you’re communicating subconsciously, and about the things which are really important versus those you’ve been conditioned to think important. But NVC and TCS are not for me. I’m in charge because I have the experience and because at the end of the day, the responsibility for my children’s well-being is mine. So, yes, sometimes I do make the rules. And sometimes I expect them to be followed. That probably makes me horrible. Ah well…
Mummy executive orders… this is what I tell Rye these days… some things are just not negotiatiable.. I did read NVC and I did rather like it and it did make me think a lot…....... but I don’t use it, partly because (lol) its pretty involved and I’ve forgotten most of it.
I’m rapidally coming tot he conclusion such ideas actually put too much pressure on children to behave in a manner they aren’t ready for.
OK, first, I need to admit that I read the NVC GP article whilst at indoor play, so really jsut skim-read it… but wow, some very
literal interpretations?
I didnt think that bit about the adult’s feelings was meant to be applied to all situations, I took it to be like with AK… that the child needs to know the consequences of their actions on others, and the NVC was saying to try to work things out as a family and make sure the child understands your needs too (like, ‘I know you dont want to go out right now, but I need to go to the shop’... etc?) I didnt take it to be emotionally manipulative, but actually a good way of ‘teaching’ kids that grown ups have needs and feelings too. Bit like when I tell my 3yr old that it is now late, and I need some sleep as we are getting up early in the morning (so stop nursing and go to sleep! LOL). I didn’t think it meant to apply [the ‘I’ thing] to all situations.
Anyway, it may make more sense when I have read the article again, thoroughly.
I just took it to mean talking things through and explaining where possible (and obviously tailoring the explaination to the child. A toddler needs a much briefer, simpler explaination than an older child).
Anyway, from what I remember of it… or what I have read elsewhere(?)... it has helped me think about how I respond to my children, especially my eldest, especially when they are doing something they shouldn’t, or are being obstructive.
That said, I got HTTSKWLALSKWT, and found it dreadful, I can attribute the following to that book
I cannot manage to read anything about it without imagining it all being said in a whiny American Accent
LOL
Right, think I’m gunna go read the article again, cos I think I missed something LOL.
PS Becky, that’s just crazy. VC or NVC if my child took anywhere near such a substantial amount of money out of my purse or her dad’s, she would be sat down and explained to that that is not her money to help herself to, and that money is to buy food and other things we (all) need. The money would be taken back as a matter of principal, much the same in that if my child took something belonging to another child she would have no choice but to give it back, stealing is stealing.
My kids take small change from my purse sometimes but they are told that it is my money and usually, once they have done playing with it, I take it back. They know they never ‘want’ for anything, and that although sometimes I choose to share money with them (and other items) ultimately it is mine and I need it, and I use it to buy them things too, it is not theres to take.
I enjoyed the article having never read any books on NVC. It made me think about how I/we speak to our children and whilst i do pull the mama knows best card regularly, if it’s the right situation I like what I see as the core theory of treating children with respect. It did seem very wordy though i can’t see my nearly 2 and 4 year olds standing still long enough for me to say everything as it was written but a shorter watered down version might have a similar effect?
PS Becky, that’s just crazy. VC or NVC if my child took anywhere near such a substantial amount of money out of my purse or her dad’s, she would be sat down and explained to that that is not her money to help herself to, and that money is to buy food and other things we (all) need. The money would be taken back as a matter of principal, much the same in that if my child took something belonging to another child she would have no choice but to give it back, stealing is stealing.
My kids take small change from my purse sometimes but they are told that it is my money and usually, once they have done playing with it, I take it back. They know they never ‘want’ for anything, and that although sometimes I choose to share money with them (and other items) ultimately it is mine and I need it, and I use it to buy them things too, it is not theres to take.
I know, it was just nonsense which is why I was so open mouthed First of all this mum said that her daughter had taken £50 and spent it and I just asked how she could because she was only just 6 so how could she go to the shops and spend it and she replied ‘oh, we took her’. Well, open mouthed doesn’t cover it LOL This was just foolishness really.
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